Can’t argue about taste, at least

(Image taken down.)

Hi folks.

The two Remake Quake singleplayer maps that were released via demos so far, e3m1rq and e1m6rq, aren’t accessible via the popular Quake Injector (software frontend to comfortably install and play Q1 maps via quaddicted.com) – and that’s intentional. Not because their creators wouldn’t like them to be, but because

“they (RMQ singleplayer demos) are too far from Quake for my taste so they are not at Quaddicted.”

Not even in the filebase, mind you. RMQ’s December 24 release is also not counted among 2010 Quake singleplayer releases by Spirit. It simply fell off the list.

Of course quaddicted.com is Spirit’s site, and technically he is not obliged to host anything he doesn’t like. So what’s the problem? Well, one person (Spirit) gets to decide what Quake Injector (and Quaddicted) users get to see and what not. This is THE main distribution channel for Quake 1 singleplayer content today, so this is a considerable amount of influence.

Quake Injector does not allow access to the entire archive of Quake 1 singleplayer releases, only a subset that gets approved by the site owner. This is not a technical problem, but an ethical one. Should this really be how the Quake community is run? It’s censorship, plain and simple. I don’t like that, so I talk about it.

I approached Spirit about this issue on IRC, but I was ultimately told that I “wasted his time”. I’ll attach the log so everybody can form their own opinion about this. Everybody is itchin’ for more Quake drama anyway…

Log

13:22 <gb> hi Spirit
13:22 <Spirit> hi
13:23 <gb> I was just wondering, are the rmq SP demos in the quake injector?
13:23 <gb> I guess I could install it and look
13:28 <Spirit> nope
13:28 <Spirit> they are too far from quake for my taste so they are not at quaddicted
13:29 <Spirit> i’d love to support all kinds of mods but “the filename issues, compression non-standards and requirement to specify some categorisation fields turned me off”
13:30 <gb> 😦
13:30 <gb> this means that you decide for all the people who use Quake Injector what they can play
13:31 <gb> technically it is your tool, so you can
13:31 <Spirit> i am hitler, trinca already told me that
13:31 <gb> I’m not Trinca, and I have a point
13:32 <Spirit> of course i control what is in my map archive
13:32 <gb> sure
13:32 <gb> it’s not a technical or legal problem at all
13:32 <gb> but a moral / ethical one
13:33 <Spirit> no, one of focus
13:33 <gb> for you
13:33 <Spirit> for my archive
13:34 <gb> then it should be clear to everybody who uses Quaddicted / Quake Injector software that they only have access to a subset of Quake related content
13:34 <Spirit> think of the problems with rmq especially, it requires its own engine
13:34 <gb> which I think is not clear to everyone
13:34 <Spirit> no actually i will not participate in this discussion until you calmed down
13:35 <gb> I am calm
13:35 <Spirit> and negative and grumpy
13:35 <gb> that’s simply not true, Spirit
13:35 <Spirit> ok
13:35 <gb> I’m just pointing out what I think are some minor problems
13:35 <Spirit> well, the injector is a frontend to quaddicted
13:35 <Spirit> which is a site focusing on sp maps
13:35 <gb> sure
13:36 <gb> e3m1rq and e1m6rq are singleplayer maps?
13:37 <gb> both run in Fitzquake 085
13:37 <gb> not to mention all of RMQ runs in Darkplaces, a commonly used engine
13:37 <Spirit> ah, i guess i should have phrased “<Spirit> they are too far from quake for my taste so they are not at quaddicted” better
13:38 <Spirit> rmq is a full blown _mod_
13:38 <Spirit> focusing on doing everything different
13:38 <gb> nehahra is at quaddicted
13:38 <Spirit> i knew that would come
13:39 <gb> but ok, that is unmistakable
13:39 <gb> <Spirit> they are too far from quake for my taste so they are not at quaddicted
13:40 <gb> the one tiny problem that remains IMO is that the “Quake archive” is pretty subjective then, which maybe should be made more public
13:41 <gb> anyway, I guess we cleared that up then.
13:42 <gb> can I cite from this conversation?
13:48 <Spirit> what “Quake archive” are you talking about?
13:48 <Spirit> what on earth is your motivation
13:48 <Spirit> sure, cite, this is public
13:49 <Spirit> calm down
13:49 <Spirit> that quote would be rather terrible though, i tried to explain it better below
13:49 <Spirit> the issue of distinguishing between maps and mods has been there from the beginning
13:49 <Spirit> of course it is subjective
13:49 <Spirit> what isnt
13:50 <Spirit> before you find http://www.quaddicted.com/reviews/atf.html and shout at me, yes, there are some stray mods on the site that would not get added today, no clue how they got in
13:52 <Spirit> and ideas how to create a mod archive are very welcome
13:59 <gb> My motivation is that I think Quake Injector users get the impression that they can easily access the entire Quake 1 singleplayer archive, every map that was ever made; while that is technically not the case, since some releases are not on the list.
14:00 <gb> My problem is that a single person gets to decide what’s on the menu, pretty much; as I said, that’s not a technical or legal problem, but an ethical one.
14:00 <gb> We put a lot of effort into creating our content
14:01 <gb> but then it’s not on the same menu as 99,9% of all other Quake singleplayer releases because the owner of the site/tool doesn’t approve.
14:02 <gb> you could say that our content is being kept out of the main distribution channel for Q1SP
14:02 <Spirit> many mods have maps but what i call maps are usually not mods and if they are mods, they are minor
14:03 <Spirit> because it is a mod and i have not found a way to properly support mods
14:03 <gb> I think it’s technically clear what constitutes a Quake 1 singleplayer map, let’s not go there
14:04 <Spirit> why not, let’s do it, maybe we will end up on the same thought
14:04 <Spirit> a quake 1 map is played in id1
14:04 <Spirit> anything else is a map that is played in a quake mod
14:04 <gb> but other SP maps that require their own progs.dat and assets are on Quaddicted, Spirit…
14:04 <Spirit> weeeee u-turn
14:05 <gb> no?
14:05 <Spirit> give me a good way to distinguish between things that are primarily mapping and those that are primarily modding and i will send you beer
14:05 <Spirit> i called maps that use their own mods “mapmods” once
14:06 <Spirit> to make clear they are not dramatically changing the gameplay
14:06 <Spirit> but just adding maybe some weapons, monsters and stuff
14:06 <gb> you’re trying to evade the fact that e3m1rq and e1m6rq are absolutely, technically and otherwise, comparable to things like Madfox’ latest map, kinn_marcher etc.
14:07 <gb> kinn_marcher also required a nonstandard engine at the time it was released…
14:07 <Spirit> FUCK NO
14:07 <gb> well, semi required
14:07 <gb> Warpspasm is at quaddicted
14:07 <gb> required a custom engine
14:07 <gb> nehahra
14:08 <Spirit> go make a checklist of things that marcher/warp/nehahra changed and one with the things that rmq changes.
14:08 <Spirit> you could do this quite objectively
14:08 <gb> but anyway, that’s irrelevant because the two RMQ demos run in Fitzquake
14:09 <gb> I guess it still comes down to <Spirit> they are too far from quake for my taste so they are not at quaddicted
14:09 <Spirit> congratulations
14:09 <gb> now who’s grumpy? πŸ™‚
14:09 <Spirit> now go rant at the old idgames2 maintainers for their tc vs pc differentiation
14:10 <Spirit> i am because you are wasting my time
14:10 <gb> ok
14:10 <gb> I’ll quote that πŸ™‚

Advertisements

8 responses to “Can’t argue about taste, at least

  • negke

    I can understand reservations because of the custom engine (not required for this demo, but it will in the near future) and possibly potential issues with the directory structure, but I call BS on this whole “not Quake enough” and “mod” thing. The Nehahra comparison is definitely valid here. RMQ doesn’t change the core formula that much, and even the content is only slightly modified in the general sense, apart from the sounds.

  • Total conversion, partial conversion, mod, map?

    […] gb recently published a very childish rant about why RemakeQuake/RMQ was not covered at Quaddicted. He went on a huge hyperbole, steering well clear of the actual issue at hand but instead insulting me deeply. He even went so far as to plaster an image with “Stop” signs. He and I are german, german government planned to put such signs infront of websites related to child abuse. I gave him some time to cool down and reconsider his accusations but the post is still there. […]

  • Spirit

    http://www.quaddicted.com/quaddictedcom/total-conversion-partial-conversion-mod-map/

    and some rebuttals personally to you which did not fit into my post.

    >Not even in the filebase, mind you.
    I do not recall being asked if I could be so nice to provide a mirror. The answer would have been “you seem to be well mirrored already and I am running out of space, sorry” if you want to know.

    >RMQ’s December 24 release is also not counted among 2010 Quake singleplayer releases by Spirit. It simply fell off the list.
    That vote is called “releases” because “maps and partial conversions” would look rather ugly and confusing. Sorry gb, I obviously only included things in the focus of the site. Many great singleplayer mods are not part of it.

  • kneedeepinthedoomed

    I thought my post was as un-rantish as possible; I felt treated unfairly, but I have to accept your quaddicted policy of course.

  • quakeEr

    ..mmh why gb didn’t think of making another Web Quake repository alternative or parallel to Quaddicted ?

    If my maps will be excluded from such site because too far from Quake I’ll surely choose that way ! πŸ™‚

    • kneedeepinthedoomed

      Unfortunately, if you’re busy making actual content, you can’t run such a site at the same time. Making a mod like RMQ already takes all your spare time and then some.

      Anyway, the RMQ stuff can be downloaded from

      http://kneedeepinthedoomed.wordpress.com/downloads/

      at least, and a Google search will bring it up too.

      Quaddicted hosts Nehahra and all kinds of other outlandish mods, so… it’s clear, Quaddicted is not a neutral archive, it’s only what Spirit likes.

      And I don’t care about it anymore, I don’t make Quake mods or maps anymore and even if I did, I couldn’t give 2 shits. But most players looking for Quake maps are directed to that site, and they are gonna assume that if something isn’t on Quaddicted, it doesn’t exist. Which is incorrect. πŸ˜‰

  • kneedeepinthedoomed

    I’m fine with how the situation is now, Spirit.

    I don’t have time to do that code either, due to being busy elsewhere.

    As for the, hm, political or ethical side, you told me “It’s not Quake enough”. That seems extra crystal clear. πŸ˜‰

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: